Version 2 Nepheton/Nithonat/Drumazon

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db.one
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Version 2 Nepheton/Nithonat/Drumazon

Post by db.one » Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:31 pm

Now that LuSH-101 has been out for some time, I'm curious to know more about D16's development schedule for 2013. As a very devout 808 junkie, I am particularly curious about version 2 of Nepheton.

Sebastian has perviously mentioned possible tweaks to the sequencer. Also, I'm very curious to know if there will also be any more work to bring emulation closer in line with the real machines. Please do not mistake my question as any sort of harsh criticism - I own and enjoy all of the D16 instruments - but as someone who has also owned a mint TR-808 for over 10+ years plus several TR-606, I still hear some clear differences between some of their voices.

Thanks and praise to Jacek, Sebastian and all the guys at D16 for all of their amazing work. Best of health and prosperity to all in the coming New Year!

Dylan

tronic307
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Re: Version 2 Nepheton/Nithonat/Drumazon

Post by tronic307 » Sun May 31, 2015 5:55 am

Nepheton is very fun but definitely needs an audio upgrade. The hi-hats sound scratchy at default settings and must be tweaked to get that metallic sheen. Why have a decay setting for the cowbell if the decay isn't going to be as long as the default cowbell decay of many 808s at max? The mid setting should be the default and have a longer decay from there. Also, there should be a control to vary the pitch difference between the two cowbell oscillators. If this is a modelled 808, shouldn't we be able to get under the hood and tweak the pots? Maybe even get that high pitched snare like on earlier serial number 808s, mess with the bass drum decay, pitch envelope, etc. Speaking of tweaking the bass drum, there needs to be more knobs as the sweep control is inadequate. The bass drum pitch is too low, so you could turn the sweep clockwise, but then the pitch drop is too fast. Also, The phase of the bass drum and other t-bridge generated sounds seems to be flipped. A pitch envelope control for the toms and congas would also be nice, but it's a minor nitpick.

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Sebastian@d16
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Re: Version 2 Nepheton/Nithonat/Drumazon

Post by Sebastian@d16 » Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:27 am

Hi,

Framework and UI is only one aspect of the upgrade. Don't worry DSP path will also be revised by our specialists, but you need to take into account fact that 808's sound varies a bit from specimen to specimen (this concerns not only the sound character but also envelope time constants), so if you owned one and Nepheton entirely doesn't sound like that it may be that your 808 comes from different series. But i won't argue that pots' ranges can be readjusted. What we do know for sure is hats definitely require our attention. We do want to have Nepheton's hats to be as close with sound character to real 808 as Nithonat's hats are right now to 606.

Best regards,
Sebastian

tronic307
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Re: Version 2 Nepheton/Nithonat/Drumazon

Post by tronic307 » Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:54 am

Thanks Sebastian. I do agree on Nithonat's hi-hats, they're awesome, but Nepheton has some quirks in the sound I would consider atypical to actual 808s or to the comparison 808 in the sound examples even. These are very minor details that most people wouldn't catch so the consensus would still indicate that Nepheton is the best VST 808 emulator. I think ADM sucks but I like its hi-hats and cowbell better. I know the pitch difference of the cowbell oscillators is probably straight from the service manual, but no 808 had perfect tuning there so maybe the cowbell needs a tone control as well as tune. Also maybe we could have the option of having the cowbell tuning affect the cymbals, with the cowbell gaining some of the same tweaks that the cymbals have now. Maybe we could have an emulation that would absorb the full range of tonal differences by allowing the modelled discrete analog components to operate anywhere inside their rated tolerance with a randomization feature that could apply to individual voices as well as the whole kit. Maybe add in some dynamic analog circuit drift. Then Nepheton would have the potential to sound like any and every 808.

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Sebastian@d16
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Re: Version 2 Nepheton/Nithonat/Drumazon

Post by Sebastian@d16 » Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:29 am

Hi,

You're welcome. Sound of 808's cowbell is created by few of the oscillators being part of noise generator for hats. For Nepheton's sake we separated those two instruments in the code (by creating redundant generators) to make possible tuning the cowbell. It's conceivable to control some other aspects of cowbell's oscillators beside the overall frequency offset (tuning parameter), like frequency distance between the oscillators themselves, but believe me, we tried. Our DSP specialist spent lot of time fine-tuning the exact oscillator's frequencies for the cowbell. Problem laid in necessity of keeping exact amplitude and frequency proportion between oscillators. When only one of them will be slightly out of its original frequency, the output won't sound like cowbell at all, more like some extremely weird FM setting. Can't omit the fact the sound from oscillator gets onto clipper to create additional harmonics (and where that metallic-like timbre originates). We can of course try to compare other 808 specimens beside the one we based our implementation on to make the sound more faithful, but i don't think adding more tweaks to cowbell generator is an option.

Cheers,
Sebastian

tronic307
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Re: Version 2 Nepheton/Nithonat/Drumazon

Post by tronic307 » Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:23 pm

Would it be possible to implement this?
https://youtu.be/chFz-0StDCE?t=3m33s
There are Rate and Depth controls on this 808 cowbell clone module, not necessarily Pitch. Do you think the depth does something with the clipper? Hear how the beats change between the two oscillators? Every 808 had a slightly different character that way and that's what made it unique and interesting. It's one of the sounds that was a bit different from unit to unit. I would look toward these individual modular 808 instrument clones for additional parameter inspiration because you guys already have the stock 808 thing covered 101%. These things tend to have a fresher sound due to younger components but the sound seems to be legit. The instrument I probably want may be beyond the scope of Nepheton, but more in the vein of what LuSH-101 is to a stock SH-101. A drum synth based on the analog Roland TR voice units which sounds perfect at default settings but allows much more control of the sound. No one else seems to be doing this in VSTi form at the moment and I think if anyone could pull it off it would be D16 Group.

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Sebastian@d16
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Re: Version 2 Nepheton/Nithonat/Drumazon

Post by Sebastian@d16 » Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:08 am

Hi,

This looks like just LFO modulating overall pitch for cowbell's oscillators controlled with Rate and Depth parameters. It is possible to implement, but the question is whether it's usable in any situation since cowbell seems to be not very chromatic. I definitely agree on the point of view you presented, synthesized drum instruments bring way more possibilities of sound shaping and expressiveness comparing to any sample based drum module, that's why I think we'll exploit this area more in future products :)

Kind regards,
Sebastian

moscom
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Re: Version 2 Nepheton/Nithonat/Drumazon

Post by moscom » Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:26 am

Probably you guys at d16 are aware of this bit of work. I find it interestting and informative.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ku ... blications

I tried approximations of some of his models and they sounded really good. Hope you find this interesting and if you were not aware of it!

Cheers

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